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A conversation on Astrology between @linda and @iratxe

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    • #6705
      AvatarIratxe Mendi

      Hello all,

      and I come to share some elements of a thread that unfolded from a conversation that started a while ago connected with June’s challenge. We both think-feel it might be a topic to be continued in the forum. It has to do with the struggles one finds at times with the astrological system and then with the patriarchal conditioning finely and deeply embedded within this sacred map. It is just part of our evolution here on/in Earth – we all are conditioned by around 5000 years of a patriarchal era that is ending now – screaming and kicking badly. And so, in this transition questions and movements arise. They have already come up in the forum in the past and no so past (like @livvy’s take on Eris, Lilith and BML, the feminine side of Saturn and Jessica Garfield-Kabbara’s “Re-visioning Saturn” paper…and so on).

      Now we just share and propose another look having these pieces of a conversation as a springboard. If you feel inclined to continue…

      It was meant to be an ongoing conversation between us, but I feel I am not able to add more words into it – here it’s being a subtle and at times deeply embodied process, and so words are yet to come. Now it needs silence – even if at times words and wanting to share them keep coming back…I’ll keep them quiet for a while.

      It has been a very enriching process, both during the actual conversation and later, when we have been sharing and comparing notes and words to be shared.

      We have decided to wait to post it until this end of the summer and Mercury Rx (:) and also to leave it as an attached document because it’s too way long. In this pdf you’d find a complete message by @linda that was received/felt as a gift – there you have it all. In this thoughtful message Vedic astrology is mentioned, and so we thought it would be helpful to add some introductory notes on the subject (see pdf)…and connected to this question on the different and diverse astrological systems (in @linda’s own words – I would never be able to name it this way -) “Have your ever questioned this Greco Roman system and before that Chaldean/Assyrian/Persian Ptolemaic location of houses and/or meaning of houses, and planets and the fact that it is now the Greco/Roman Pantheon, even though it was borrowed from the Middle East?”

      Questions like this one…above all, your own questions.

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    • #6708

      Thanks @iratxe @linda for sharing, fascinating conversation. and thanks for sharing the basis of Vedic astrology.

    • #6709

      @linda @iratxe @esthere

      the calendar originally used by many was a luni-solar calendar – even in modern times, the Jewish calendar is mostly made to sync with the Julian calendar, as celebrating Sabbaths completely out of sync with the Romans would have meant the Jews would have stood even more visibly out from other people in the Roman empire.

      I feel like moving to a sun based calendar is also symbolic of people’s transference of their faith in Creator, or spirit, or the purpose filled character of all things, to the idea of the state, for example the Roman state, and the Roman state system, which many of us have effectively inherited, and also impacts our psychological shared lives/landscapes – in the sense that it has come to provide a (false, in my opinion) language which is supposed to guide how we think about ourselves in relation to each other. The moon in this system is effectively “written out” of our conceptual language for understanding ourselves, because attunement with nature is deemed irrelevant to the project of extorting from the created environment everything we can – though we know in our spirit (or maybe in our bodies) this is wrong, we are also taught to be suspicious of those channels which could “lead us back” to listening to what the earth is demanding from us, in how we treat each other and earth’s resources.

      I hope this is another way of looking at things, which could help us make sense of what some of us may feel or have thought about …

    • #6710

      Hello @livvy,

      What you have written is very provocative, and points to how our measurement of time by the Sun, shapes our conception of State and power relationships. I know that observant Jews still follow a lunar calendar, and that each lunar month has a special character, but I believe this is for the observance of religious ritual and holidays. Each month begins at the first sighting of the New Moon, with the sounding of the Shofar. I understand, however, as you suggest that the Julian Calendar determines the patterns of daily life.

      Do you have any ideas about how our perception of life, power relations, city states, government and interpersonal relationship, language would change if moon and it’s phases, and nighttime presence was at the center of our consciousness? Would dreams become a source of vision, knowing communication, rather than the nightime mixmaster to sort and digest experiences that are not recognized by solar consciousness, and relegated to the unconscious. I wonder how language would change, how private property would change? I think of indigenous people and the statement of Chief Joseph – If you sell the earth, you might as well sell our mother.”

      Do you have any idea of how, besides, state, and power relationships, that Solar consciousness blinds us to the totality of existence? I agree with you, that conquest and exploitation of nature and the earth, the Industrial Revolution etc,and climate change are the result of solar pride and power infatuation, not to mention, mass cruelty.

      Very interesting post. thank you.

    • #6711

      Hello @linda, yes – my idea is that we can think of the natures of knowledge and understanding somewhat differently – if we take this division between their strict natures as a kind of tool to show us something deeper, and lead us to somewhat more fulfilling methodologies whereby we could judge whether the systems in place are serving our unity with the rest of nature, as created matter and being, or whether our servitude of those systems are breaking us away from our unity with the rest of nature – we could align the Sun with the power of knowledge and the Moon with the power of understanding. If we idolise the “Sun” – the power of knowledge – we forget that knowledge without understanding is dead knowledge, and it also turns to death when we partake in those ways of idolising knowledge, by itself. We have lost understanding, of all things, because of idolising knowledge, which is dead by itself, because it does not by itself draw us into deeper understanding of what we really are in relation to the rest of nature, of which we are a part – we are not nature’s masters, but that is how we begin to think, and act, if we do not see what we are doing. And by that time, as we are seeing, it seems almost too late to change anything. But we don’t need to wait for the group to change, because that is part of the problem, that we have surfeited our individual power of understanding to the group, and perhaps absorbed that message about the power of knowledge, by itself – but that power is only useful to shore up the power of such things as the state and abusive leaders/teachings. The power of knowledge by itself is nothing, because it needs to be harnessed to the power of understanding, of listening to our bodies, our spirits, and each other. “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up”. I think we would be better at listening to our bodies, and not suspicious of what our bodies are telling us – to sever abusive connections, to speak up for our child-selves, and to take our own best interests to heart, not suffer abuse, but speak kindly and severely at the same time when that is needed – like the Moon, or a mother, who keeps time of the season and never loses her timing in keeping the seasons for us – even when we can’t see her because of a cloudy sky or storm, when we see her again, she has not lost her timing, she will keep showing us the seasons again – she is determined, kind, wise and strong but her love isn’t false, and I think the emphasis we have sometimes on forgiveness before we have even really understood how we were hurt in a situation, is just another form of overriding the Moon, and the power of understanding. It is just in a way where we would think we were “being the Moon” to others – but the Moon shines indiscriminately, for each one, not expecting us to block out ourselves in order to serve others – but rather from a place of counting ourselves a part of nature, and of everyone else in the world, doing our best to show each other how we really are a part of nature, and to show how we have lost our course through serving ourselves, and idolising the power of knowledge, at the cost of losing the understanding which could really anchor us as part of the same family with each other, in a universe where the timing is always kept for us, and even though indeed there is much suffering, we are also always provided for, and we are a part of providing for each other, and that when we don’t because of how much we are blind, then all of creation suffers, too. This is my vision of how things could be different, if we changed the “settings” of our lives, in a general sense, and I hope there is something there which is clarifying not confusingx

      • #6715
        AvatarIratxe Mendi

        Hi @livvy,

        Thanks for your words, they are indeed clarifying. The way you have unfolded knowledge and understanding has provided understanding (and this is not playing with words). Lately I have been paying attention to lunar cycles in a way I hadn’t done before and what you have shared is weaved to the experience. Coming back to the astrological map, I have also realized how I have been somehow putting down the Moon in ways that would be too long and hard to name. It is (again “somehow” and yet radically) connected to what you have written. Let’s see how all this unfolds…

    • #6716

      Hello @Iratxe and @livvy,

      , with @Iratxe, I thank you for conceptualizing this solar/lunar world as Knowledge and Understanding. Being trained in library science and working often among corridors of books, I used to look out the window and try to talk to the trees, whose very lives had been sacrificed to make so many trashing books – not all for sure, because the library carries the historical record, yet physically I often felt like I worked in a mausoleum, and my mind in self defense would wander back to the temptation of Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I think that distinction is important, because not all knowledge is good or life supporting, but destructive and death bringing. I think that we often use the world knowledge in a generic way, like it’s all enlightening – and it’s not. It is the application and use of knowledge that makes it good or evil.

      That is where understanding fits in – to understand the nature of knowledge and not have the idolatry we give to the shrine of knowledge, where the world is objectified in words on the page, or into computer code, and we are more and more alienated from our own innate faculties. I wonder sometimes how many innate sensibilities have been surrendered or lost to the solar world. We have become servants to machines. I have heard stories that the aborigines of Australia can smell water from miles away. Do we even consider that some understanding might be innate and doesn’t even need to taught or schooled, but will just naturally develop.?

      I find your identification of knowledge and understanding to be a very clear way of thinking. IN closing, I wonder if we can imagine the cooperation of the lunar world of understanding and solar world of knowing as meeting in Wisdom, which includes both. But I think wisdom is about learning from experience, or putting knowledge to the test and deriving understanding which unifies experience. Without wisdom, our days are just saturated with information.

      thank you @livvy for helping me clarify my thoughts.



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